Curse

Cebe · Jan 31, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

So I got thinking the other day...what would be better than a healing monk and a protection monk in a PvE mission...? Answer...a healing monk and a protection monk that have builds which work to each other's advantage. Not a new concept I guess but it's something I decided to get my brother involved in and try out since we both have monks. My monk is generally a healer while he (sometimes scarily) loves protection.

So the builds I devised were these:

Healing Monk:
[skill]Succor[/skill]<Insert General Heals Here>[skill]Healing Light[/skill][skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill][skill]Mend Ailment[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Protection Monk:
[skill]Life Barrier[/skill][skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill]<Insert Protection Skills Here>[skill]Rebirth[/skill]

Ok, so the idea was to cast and maintain Succor on the Protection monk, that's generally about it. Now I don't know the community's general feelings towards this skill but personally I think it's a fantastic skill since it allows the healing monk (me) to essentially "pay for" the upkeep of one of the protection monk's Life Barriers...enabling him/her to cast more and lose less energy. How is this sounding so far?

I did wonder if Succor would be a bad skill for a healing monk to use because it does have the side effect of me losing 1 energy every time target casts a spell. So to test this my brother and I went to ThunderHead Keep. As well as maintaining Succor on the Protection Monk I also maintained it on an Elementalist. To be honest, only when we started to get heavy degen due to conjure phantasm/crippling anguish by the Stone Summit Heretics did I actually notice my energy getting too low (and so stopped maintaining Succor on the Ele)...the battle up to the Keep I could maintain Succor on both players no problem.

Now before you come right back at me and say "an ele should not need an extra energy regen"...no, I agree, the reason I used it on the ele was to see how badly Succor would affect my energy if it was cast on a player who chucks out spells fast. Since I was, on the whole, fine for energy with the exception of the battle at Dagnar Stoneplace I came to the conclusion Succor would be fine to keep maintained on just the Protection Monk, even in intense battles.

It's kind of a "two-way street"...I'm helping out the Protection monk with an extra pip of energy regen (since I can do without) and my skills are designed such that I gain benefits from his enchantments. For example...Dwayna's Kiss heals for more, Healing Light provides energy back.

I was considering taking the elite [wiki]Peace and Harmony[/wiki]. This way he could have an extra 2 energy regen and would have no issues in maintaining Life Barrier on everyone, problem being, I would lose out on a healing elite. I also considered taking [wiki]Healer's Boon[/wiki], as is in my usual healing build, but I just didn't know if this would hurt my energy too much as there is too much potential for wasting energy in over-heal and energy shouldn't be wasted when you have 2 pips of regen I feel.

Any (constructive) comments or suggestions welcome.

Does anyone else use Succor? I only just came across this the other day and I've never seen anyone else use it before...

stanza · Jan 31, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

I use succor on my hero MM , with soul reaping at 14 he doesnt seem to notice it. I used to use it on my adrenaline warrior also . but I dont use the warrior much in my teams now.
I like the skill but never risked it on a monk as a donor so to speak but to offset boon or bonds its good.
If it works well for you then its good to go.

moko · Jan 31, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Life Barrier is a waste of elite. you'd do much better doing life bond. you'd do even better with a non protection bonder. >_> and yes, i can top that as well! use 2 HYBRID prot monks! *omgshockwtfbbq*

ya..>_>

one divert hexes and one ZB, should work better than two healers, a prot and a healer and other crap in pve. >.> usually tons of hexes around, and zb is nice for pve too.

but back to your concept...

Succor, Healing Light, Dwaynas Kiss, Healing Touch, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition, Rebirth (not that handy if your prot bonder would lose all energy, aye?)

Life Barrier, Divert Hexes/Restore Conditions (depending on area), Reversal of Fortune, Blessed Signet, Ressurection Chant, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Aegis

if it was for me, id kick one (if not both) rezzes and take additional hex or condition removal for them. ;o

Cebe · Jan 31, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

Life Barrier is a waste of elite. you'd do much better doing life bond. you'd do even better with a non protection bonder. >_> and yes, i can top that as well! use 2 HYBRID prot monks! *omgshockwtfbbq*

ya..>_>

one divert hexes and one ZB, should work better than two healers, a prot and a healer and other crap in pve. >.> usually tons of hexes around, and zb is nice for pve too.

but back to your concept...

Succor, Healing Light, Dwaynas Kiss, Healing Touch, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition, Rebirth (not that handy if your prot bonder would lose all energy, aye?)

Life Barrier, Divert Hexes/Restore Conditions (depending on area), Reversal of Fortune, Blessed Signet, Ressurection Chant, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Aegis

if it was for me, id kick one (if not both) rezzes and take additional hex or condition removal for them. ;o

So, let me get this straight, if you were going to use this build for PvE you would remove BOTH resurrects and have all the rest of your team shouting "ZOMG NOOB MONK HAS NO RES!!!!!!" when you're the only one alive huh?

Another point. My brother, who was playing as Protection, took Rebirth for a couple of reasons. 1. So at least one of us could res from a greater range. and 2. IF everyone was dead but him he would have no enchantments to maintain...so... *shrugs* I don't really see why that is too much of a problem...

Ok, Serious question. [wiki]Holy Veil[/wiki] - WHY is this good? I see a lot of monk builds with it in but all I can see is that it's an elaborate form of hex removal...why does it get used over remove hex when remove hex has a faster recharge?

Arrows[PURE] · Jan 31, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

For me, holy veil is not for PvE, I normally just bring inspired hex for a little energy as im not too bothered about removing hexes unless theyr really bad like backfire or empathy or SS, hexes like that

TLLOTS · Feb 01, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Ok, Serious question. [wiki]Holy Veil[/wiki] - WHY is this good? I see a lot of monk builds with it in but all I can see is that it's an elaborate form of hex removal...why does it get used over remove hex when remove hex has a faster recharge?

Because it has a faster cast time than remove hex, and also because you can preveil with it to remove really annoying hexes such as [wiki]Shame[/wiki] and [wiki]Diversion[/wiki].

stanza · Feb 01, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

holy veil is kinda elaborate in the fact you have to apply it then remove to get the benefit, rather than just apply. .. still only 2 clicks tho'

Burst Cancel · Feb 01, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

You shouldn't need to run dedicated emgt unless you're facing an abnormal situation, like the Torment environmental effects. Even then, you are better off improving the efficiency of the rest of your skillbar and carrying some support on your other team members (ie. wards, shouts, etc.). Skills like Succor and P&H end up being wasted skill slots in nearly all cases.

What kind of build you run in PvE is going to depend heavily on how much you trust the other members of your team. If, for instance, you're running a trinity team with competent players, both monks should take essence bond for near-infinite energy, and lean towards bonder-based defense. Another example is Zealous Benediction - this is not a skill you want to run if you don't know the other monk, because if they're a shit-munching moron like 99% of the people who play this game, you just wasted your elite slot.

Barrier is actually a pretty good PvE option if you're content to play a dedicated bonder. Personally, I think hitting the Blessed Sig button every 8 seconds for the entire ****ing mission is mind-rottingly boring, but if you can stand that kind of brainless repetition then it's an easy and effective way to mitigate a lot of incoming damage.

Holy Veil is much more a PvP skill than a PvE one. PvE monster groups tend to carry multiple copies of any hex that matters, and they usually don't bother to cover the hexes (or, more often, every hex is equally (in)effective, so which one you remove doesn't really matter), so the advantages of Veil are mostly lost on PvE players.

Franco Power · Feb 01, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Mhenlo and Lina do the job for me just fine in PvE.

Seef II · Feb 01, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

In Nightfall, you're rarely stuck with debilitating hexes. I'm not sure if anything even carries a high-spec Diversion in lategame. Hence, the hench monks don't carry hex removal - the worst it gets is faintheartedness on an attacker, which is easily patched up by off-monk Expel Hexes or Empathic Removal.

I disagree about ZB monking if you don't know the other monk. If the other monk's a drooling moron, then they'll run out of energy really quick and then you can hit the 50% bonus quite repeatedly. At that point, though, you're recharge-limited, and people below 50% isn't a good thing at all, even in PvE. Far too many times have I waited for the sweet spot on the health bar, only to hear the fizzle on ZB because the monsters decided to send a couple Stonings toward my non-kiting ally.

I'll take the blame for that one... once.

LightningHell · Feb 01, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I personally like LoD. For at least one monk.

Cebe · Feb 01, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

What kind of build you run in PvE is going to depend heavily on how much you trust the other members of your team. If, for instance, you're running a trinity team with competent players, both monks should take essence bond for near-infinite energy, and lean towards bonder-based defense. Another example is Zealous Benediction - this is not a skill you want to run if you don't know the other monk, because if they're a shit-munching moron like 99% of the people who play this game, you just wasted your elite slot.

If I'm playing with henchmen and heroes I wont take a res, because quite simply, we don't die (unless we take Alesia, the most useless henchmen in the history of the world...does she have negative attribute points??). Also, the build I posted in my OP was for when myself and my brother monk together, I would never even consider taking that for a random PuG with a monk I didn't know because you're right, a lot of other monks do seem to be complete morons, as is illustrated by the fact that they leave mid-mission. why? "because they can". When I attempt to PuG missions and people say "we need to monks" I tend to add 2 hench monks only to be told I need human ones. I say "O RLY?" and make my case, also telling them to leave if they're not happy...odd how they never do...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Barrier is actually a pretty good PvE option if you're content to play a dedicated bonder. Personally, I think hitting the Blessed Sig button every 8 seconds for the entire ****ing mission is mind-rottingly boring, but if you can stand that kind of brainless repetition then it's an easy and effective way to mitigate a lot of incoming damage.

Well although I have never used Life Barrier my brother swears by it. I mean, just by looking at it, ~50% less damage for, potentially, the entire mission...how is that a bad thing? It's like having "Incoming!" permanently on and, correct me if I'm wrong, that got nerfed faster than the first Paragon was made.. I dunno, my brother LOVES playing Life Barrier Protection Monk and seems to gain great pleasure in spamming Blessed Signet and Reversal of Fortune...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

Mhenlo and Lina do the job for me just fine in PvE.

Quite. If I have to play a mission on my own as monk I take hench/heroes and I go smiting. Mhenlo, even though he is a complete noob and I hate him in Factions, has not let me down so far in Prophecies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I personally like LoD. For at least one monk.

I used to use Light of Deliverance on my monk but...it just didn't do it for me. Monking just doesn't seem like it shoule be waiting for people to hit ~80% health and clicking one button over and over.

I use Light of Deliverance in Abaddon's Gate. I like monking that mission and sometimes do it for fun... Glyph of Lesser Energy, Extinguish, Heal Party, LoD, Remove Hex (or Holy Veil, whatever turns you on

) works like a charm...only use I've ever found for Heal Party...

bungusmaximus · Feb 01, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Ok, Serious question. [wiki]Holy Veil[/wiki] - WHY is this good? I see a lot of monk builds with it in but all I can see is that it's an elaborate form of hex removal...why does it get used over remove hex when remove hex has a faster recharge?

Because of dwayna's kiss. Target gets hexed, i put veil on target, heal with dwayna's kiss. Dwaynas kiss gets heal bonus from either veil and the hex. I remove veil, hex is gone

Cebe · Feb 01, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Because of dwayna's kiss. Target gets hexed, i put veil on target, heal with dwayna's kiss. Dwaynas kiss gets heal bonus from either veil and the hex. I remove veil, hex is gone

Please explaint to me how that is a fast and effective method of monking...

Yes, Holy Veil will remove a hex, yes Dwayna's Kiss will heal for a bit more, but is it ACTUALLY worth it?

LightningHell · Feb 01, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Dwayna isn't worth it. Holy Veil is.

I don't get why you say it's the only application you have found for Heal Party. PvE is full of scattered damage.

bungusmaximus · Feb 01, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Please explaint to me how that is a fast and effective method of monking...
Yes, Holy Veil will remove a hex, yes Dwayna's Kiss will heal for a bit more, but is it ACTUALLY worth it?

Let's have a look at the alternatives when it comes to hex removal, and please note that I'm talking PvE healing monk atm:
Remove Hex: 2 sec cast time, no thanks
Inspire Hex: 20 sec. recharge no thanks
Smite Hex: OK, but no synergy with dwaynas
Convert hexes: hands down barf
Divert Hexes: very sexy, but in PvE other elites are sexier
Blessed light: Very nice, but PvE can be rather hex-heavy, so it doesn't always cut it, besides, i tend to take ZB with me sometimes as well.

I personally like skills that work together, because there's only room for 8 skills on my bar and energy is limited. It's fast too, I put veil on a target, quickly heal up another target thats in trouble, get back to the veiled one and finish the combo.
Everything that's efficient is welcome. Besides, heroes know how to use veil as well

Sometimes I take Healing light with me, it returns energy when target is enchanted, another good use for holy veil. Healing Light looks like a funny choice, but sometimes I'm accompanied by 2 ele heroes that are enchanted constantly. So is the necro.

When playing prot. monk with protection prayers specced high enough, veil also works together with dissmiss condition. Dissmiss heals for approximately 75 health when target is enchanted, so I have another cheap heal on my bar next to gift of health, because dwayna's kiss doesn't fit on my prot. bar.

Please note that I don't carry the same skills throughout the entire game, that would be folly. If I'm farming near cavalon I don't take any enchants with me at all because these darn disenchant spirits own them. Enchant hate can be quite rampant in some PvE areas so sometimes I have to improvise. Rigid skillbars ftl.

@lightning hell, what on earth can be wrong with Dwaynas?

PS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

because if they're a shit-munching moron like 99% of the people who play this game, you just wasted your elite slot.

My belly still hurts from laughing, If i close my eyes I see Alesia chewing on a turd. Those are the small things that make my day worthwile

pingu666 · Feb 01, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

i use heal party all the time on my monks

LOD is cheap, so u can use it on a single damaged person if needed..

jesh · Feb 01, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I mean, just by looking at it, ~50% less damage for, potentially, the entire mission...how is that a bad thing? It's like having "Incoming!" permanently on and, correct me if I'm wrong, that got nerfed faster than the first Paragon was made.. I dunno, my brother LOVES playing Life Barrier Protection Monk and seems to gain great pleasure in spamming Blessed Signet and Reversal of Fortune...

Life Bond does the same thing, is non elite, and gives you energy in the form of Balthazar's, while Life Barrier does not.
I find that if you have two skilled monks in a group, a bonder is usually a waste of time. You're better off with active prot.

Burst Cancel · Feb 01, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Life Bond does the same thing, is non elite, and gives you energy in the form of Balthazar's, while Life Barrier does not.
I find that if you have two skilled monks in a group, a bonder is usually a waste of time. You're better off with active prot.

Life Bond does not do the same thing as Life Barrier. Bond reduces damage from attacks only, Barrier prevents "damage" (ie. not "lifesteal" or "sacrifice" or "health loss") from any source. Even ignoring all of the other (admittedly minor) differences between the two, that one difference is significant enough to make Barrier a better skill.

Again, a bonder is a good option if anyone is willing to play it. A barrier monk essentially gives the party permanent (though strippable) "Incoming!", and it's most effective in areas featuring severe damage of the ranged or AoE variety, since those types are difficult to predict and mitigate. Its only real downsides are the constant spamming of Blessed Signet and its vulnerability to mass enchantment removal (ex. Chilblains).

XvArchonvX · Feb 01, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Because of dwayna's kiss. Target gets hexed, i put veil on target, heal with dwayna's kiss. Dwaynas kiss gets heal bonus from either veil and the hex. I remove veil, hex is gone

While Dwayna's Kiss isn't bad for a healing bar (especially with Healer's Boon as the elite), I prefer Holy Veil + Dismiss Conditions with att put in Prot.